[00:00:00.06]
- Well met.

[00:00:02.03]
My name is Ben Brode, I'm
Hearthstone's game director,

[00:00:04.09]
and we're going to uncover

[00:00:06.09]
some of the Unsolved
Mysteries of Hearthstone.

[00:00:14.05]
What's the wackiest card idea

[00:00:16.03]
that you just couldn't make work?

[00:00:17.09]
We have a lot of really insane card ideas

[00:00:20.04]
that we can't make work.

[00:00:21.03]
One of them was the card
called the World Flipper.

[00:00:24.02]
Literally turned everything upside down,

[00:00:26.02]
so you had to play the game
with your head upside down

[00:00:29.01]
in order to continue playing correctly.

[00:00:31.00]
Another was the Auto-Pecker,
which was a mechanical chicken,

[00:00:34.05]
that whenever you moused over the card,

[00:00:36.02]
it would deal a damage to you,

[00:00:37.06]
whether it was you or your opponent,

[00:00:39.00]
and we were worried
about hacking the packets

[00:00:41.06]
so it wouldn't send mouseover
packets to the server,

[00:00:43.07]
so we just said,

[00:00:44.09]
"Look, let's just not make that card."

[00:00:46.03]
Another one we tried and was horrible

[00:00:49.03]
was an ooze that cost three mana

[00:00:52.00]
and was a one attack, one health minion.

[00:00:53.07]
Not very good right?

[00:00:54.08]
But, it had a Battlecry that said,

[00:00:56.04]
'Gain +1/+1 for each game
you've lost in a row',

[00:01:00.02]
so, I thought that might be kinda fun,

[00:01:01.06]
because you would
concede a bunch of games,

[00:01:03.03]
your opponents would win,
that would make them happy,

[00:01:04.09]
and you get to play a 3-mana
600/600, but we decided,

[00:01:08.01]
"You know, maybe that's too crazy."

[00:01:11.00]
How many sets are we working on at a time,

[00:01:12.08]
and at what stages are they at?

[00:01:14.05]
Well, we just released the Witchwood,

[00:01:16.08]
so that's out, that's done.

[00:01:18.03]
Our next set, which I'm
not gonna tell you about,

[00:01:20.08]
is through the final design process,

[00:01:23.00]
which is the phase where we really focus

[00:01:24.03]
on the balance and the fun
and clarity of the cards.

[00:01:27.09]
The set after that

[00:01:29.05]
is currently in the final
design process right now,

[00:01:32.07]
and the one after that,

[00:01:33.09]
which would kick off the
next year of Hearthstone,

[00:01:36.06]
is in the initial design phase,

[00:01:38.05]
where we're coming up with
the ideas for the cards,

[00:01:40.07]
and the set theme, and
what the mechanics will be.

[00:01:43.02]
Usually, there are three sets, at least,

[00:01:46.00]
that we know about, that you
guys don't know about yet.

[00:01:48.04]
What gets designed first, the
card text or the card theme?

[00:01:51.08]
So, we have a lot of cards

[00:01:52.06]
that are what we call 'Top Down' designs,

[00:01:54.08]
and a lot of cards that we
call 'Bottom Up' designs.

[00:01:56.07]
The Top Down designs are
the flavor-first designs.

[00:01:58.07]
"Hey, we want a Jaraxxus card.

[00:02:00.05]
"We must have a card

[00:02:01.05]
"that's called Lord Jaraxxus in the game."

[00:02:03.05]
"That sounds awesome.

[00:02:04.09]
"How should that work?"

[00:02:06.04]
And sometimes, we have a card design

[00:02:07.08]
that we really think
is going to be awesome.

[00:02:09.01]
"Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we got you

[00:02:10.09]
"to build your deck with
30 different cards?"

[00:02:13.04]
"Here's Echo,"
right?

[00:02:15.05]
Let's figure out a card design

[00:02:16.09]
and a theme that goes with that idea.

[00:02:19.08]
"Hey, this should have Echo,

[00:02:20.09]
"it's kind of a ghost, that feels right."

[00:02:22.04]
So, even cards that feel like Bottom Up,

[00:02:24.03]
or mechanically designed first,

[00:02:25.04]
sometimes, those are
actually Top Down designs.

[00:02:27.01]
And, it's really important
to do both, right?

[00:02:28.05]
You have to have a card set that feels

[00:02:30.08]
thematically tied together,
but also, sometimes,

[00:02:32.06]
you really are pushing a new gameplay type

[00:02:34.06]
or a new card design,
you have to do Bottom Up,

[00:02:36.03]
and there's real challenge,

[00:02:37.04]
"What is the fantasy that really
sells this card mechanic?"

[00:02:41.00]
Are there any cool card
combos players have found

[00:02:44.05]
that you never expected from testing?

[00:02:46.07]
Yes, all the time, yeah.

[00:02:48.03]
There are a finite number
of Hearthstone developers,

[00:02:52.08]
and a much higher number
of Hearthstone players.

[00:02:55.04]
Things like Freeze Mage, or Miracle Rogue,

[00:02:58.01]
some of these classic Hearthstone decks,

[00:02:59.05]
we just never had anything close to that,

[00:03:01.00]
until we went out to a larger audience,

[00:03:02.07]
and players started destroying us

[00:03:05.01]
with cards we never thought would be good.

[00:03:07.00]
Actually, there's one very recently

[00:03:08.07]
that happened with the last set,

[00:03:09.09]
where players could play the
Un'Goro card Explore Un'Goro,

[00:03:14.05]
which turns their deck into
cards that cost one mana,

[00:03:17.08]
they would play King Togwaggle,

[00:03:19.06]
which swaps decks with your opponent,

[00:03:21.08]
and then you play Skulking Geist,

[00:03:24.02]
which destroys every 1-Cost
card in players decks and hands,

[00:03:28.04]
and then your opponent
has no deck to play with,

[00:03:30.04]
which I think is pretty rude.

[00:03:32.04]
How do you name Hearthstone's minions?

[00:03:34.06]
Well, some of them are
from World of Warcraft,

[00:03:36.01]
and we just take their names
from World of Warcraft,

[00:03:37.09]
but a lot of them are generic
creatures of this world,

[00:03:42.03]
things like the Goldshire Footman.

[00:03:44.00]
So, often, we try and come up with names

[00:03:45.07]
that really marry the
mechanics of the card,

[00:03:48.06]
what that card does,
what the card text reads,

[00:03:51.02]
with the flavor that
we're trying to get across

[00:03:53.04]
in the set or the world or the class.

[00:03:55.07]
If we can really hit that trio of,

[00:03:58.07]
"Hey, here's what the mechanic does,

[00:04:00.05]
"here's what the art is
trying to get across,

[00:04:02.04]
"and here's why this is a Priest card,"

[00:04:03.09]
or Paladin card, or something,

[00:04:05.00]
and ideally, we also have
some variety of names,

[00:04:07.07]
we don't just want every card

[00:04:08.08]
to be the something-y something.

[00:04:10.05]
The adjective-y noun.

[00:04:11.05]
So, we try and come up with things

[00:04:13.00]
that are one word sometimes,
like Shellshifter,

[00:04:15.09]
or give guys nicknames,
or things like that.

[00:04:17.07]
We want to be as creative as possible

[00:04:19.02]
with coming up with names
that don't all just sound

[00:04:21.00]
like the same thing over and over again.

[00:04:22.08]
Would the optimal state of
the game see all nine classes

[00:04:26.00]
have a Tier 1 deck at the same time?

[00:04:28.01]
I think, yes, that would be
the optimal state of the game.

[00:04:30.06]
It's also wildly difficult to
achieve, perhaps impossible.

[00:04:34.00]
Players decide what decks and
classes they want to play,

[00:04:37.07]
and then, depending on what the meta is,

[00:04:40.01]
and which classes and decks are good,

[00:04:42.01]
then you should actually
change what deck you're playing

[00:04:43.07]
to target those classes, to
be better against the field.

[00:04:46.09]
That, then, changes the meta,

[00:04:48.05]
because everyone's
playing those decks, then,

[00:04:50.00]
the best decks, now, are being targeted,

[00:04:51.06]
and aren't quite as good,

[00:04:52.05]
and so we see this change
in the meta over time.

[00:04:54.07]
Also, there are things
that players discover,

[00:04:56.08]
sometimes late in metas.

[00:04:57.09]
We saw decks crop up
late in cycle sometimes,

[00:05:00.08]
that were very good,

[00:05:01.06]
that players weren't playing for months,

[00:05:03.05]
but then, someone discovered a cool combo,

[00:05:05.01]
or a weakness in the meta, and
they started exploiting that,

[00:05:07.06]
and creating a new top tier deck.

[00:05:10.00]
So, things change a lot,

[00:05:11.04]
and we also want to make opportunities

[00:05:14.02]
for players to discover
things and feel very powerful.

[00:05:16.08]
It's just really hard to
do across nine classes.

[00:05:20.05]
How big of a deal is hall of
faming cards for the team.

[00:05:24.04]
I think it's a significant deal.

[00:05:25.06]
This is a thing that happens once a year,

[00:05:27.08]
this is our opportunity to really deliver

[00:05:30.01]
on the fantasy and goals
of the Standard format,

[00:05:33.05]
where you get to see new,
exciting things every year,

[00:05:36.06]
and that the meta changes dramatically

[00:05:38.01]
every time Hearthstone year turns,

[00:05:39.08]
and the Evergreen sets do
significant work for us, right?

[00:05:43.08]
They make sure that no
matter when you come back

[00:05:45.01]
to Hearthstone, you always
have some cards you can play.

[00:05:47.03]
They really set the base
tone and fantasy of the game.

[00:05:50.09]
They help make sure
there's base level of cards

[00:05:53.01]
that interact with other things, right?

[00:05:54.05]
We can make one new Mage
secret, for example,

[00:05:56.08]
in an expansion, and it's okay,

[00:05:58.05]
because you still have to consider

[00:05:59.07]
the other Mage secrets
that exist in the format,

[00:06:01.08]
so we don't have to make

[00:06:02.08]
two Mage secrets a set, for example,

[00:06:04.03]
to make sure there's enough
secrets to play with.

[00:06:05.09]
We have a really fun card idea

[00:06:07.05]
that we're really excited to print,

[00:06:08.08]
but there's cards in Standard

[00:06:10.06]
that would make it way too powerful.

[00:06:12.07]
Now, Wild has a much
higher power level already,

[00:06:16.00]
because it contains
every card ever printed.

[00:06:17.08]
There's crazy synergies there

[00:06:19.07]
that are super, super powerful,

[00:06:21.06]
and so the bar for power is
so much higher in that format,

[00:06:25.01]
that these cards can interact
there and not be too powerful,

[00:06:28.00]
but for Standard, some
of these Classic cards

[00:06:30.08]
could sometimes make it hard for us

[00:06:32.04]
to design exciting new cards.

[00:06:34.06]
So, sometimes that's why we move cards

[00:06:36.05]
to the Hall of Fame, as well.

[00:06:37.08]
What cards have you been surprised

[00:06:39.09]
didn't make more of an impact?

[00:06:41.08]
I think there's a lot of cards

[00:06:42.07]
that we position to be
at a certain power level,

[00:06:45.09]
and then, we sometimes
miss up or down about 10%.

[00:06:48.03]
A good example of that is from
Knights of the Frozen Throne,

[00:06:51.03]
in Valeera the Hollow.

[00:06:52.08]
It really has a great defensive ability,

[00:06:54.06]
in making your hero immune for a turn,

[00:06:56.05]
gives you some armor, and really gives you

[00:06:58.06]
an incredible value engine
throughout the rest of the game,

[00:07:01.05]
and we didn't end up seeing decks

[00:07:03.02]
go in that direction too much.

[00:07:05.00]
We saw a lot more Tempo Rogue,

[00:07:06.05]
and aggressive-style Rogue decks.

[00:07:07.09]
Certainly, that card is very powerful,

[00:07:09.07]
and we might see it
come back in the future,

[00:07:11.06]
but we definitely thought

[00:07:12.06]
it would make a bigger impact
in the meta that it was in.

[00:07:15.00]
What is the most elaborate secret

[00:07:16.08]
you've hidden in the game board?

[00:07:18.05]
There are a lot in there,
let me just say that first,

[00:07:20.03]
but there's one that I
think is just hilarious.

[00:07:22.05]
Lich King is, of course,

[00:07:23.05]
known for using the players
powers against them, right?

[00:07:26.09]
Depending on which class you
queue up against the Lich King,

[00:07:29.07]
he's gonna wreck you
in a very specific way.

[00:07:31.07]
For example, the Paladin,

[00:07:33.08]
when he plays against the Lich King,

[00:07:35.01]
anytime one of his minions dies,

[00:07:36.05]
the Lich King with rez it on
his side of the battlefield,

[00:07:38.08]
as a servant of the undead.

[00:07:40.01]
And, every class is a different
deck-building challenge,

[00:07:42.06]
but the Priest has the
most humiliating effect,

[00:07:47.01]
where if you queue up
as Anduin, the Priest,

[00:07:49.03]
against the Lich King,
he silences your hero.

[00:07:52.08]
And, it doesn't really
have any gameplay effect,

[00:07:54.04]
it just means you literally cannot emote

[00:07:56.08]
for the rest of the game, and
you're playing against an AI,

[00:07:59.00]
so, presumably, your emotes
don't matter all that much,

[00:08:01.03]
but it just feels bad.

[00:08:08.08]
- [Lich King] Silence.

[00:08:09.07]
- But, there's a cool
thing you can do, which is,

[00:08:12.01]
there's a one-cost card
called Mind Vision,

[00:08:15.01]
which copies a card out
of your opponent's hand.

[00:08:17.07]
And, if you are playing as Priest,

[00:08:19.05]
and you always get to go
first against the Lich King.

[00:08:21.08]
If you happen to draw
Mind Vision, and play it,

[00:08:23.09]
and you happen to steal the card

[00:08:26.04]
that silences your opponent,

[00:08:27.07]
you can play it against the Lich King,

[00:08:30.00]
causing your Lich King
to be unable to emote

[00:08:32.04]
for the rest of the game.

[00:08:35.04]
- [Lich King] But wait, you can't.

[00:08:37.09]
- We recorded an entire series
of muffled Lich King sounds

[00:08:41.07]
as he tries to emote at you
for the rest of the game.

[00:08:49.03]
Very rarely happens.

[00:08:50.06]
We had a more complicated one

[00:08:52.03]
on our Journey to Un'Goro board,

[00:08:54.03]
where if you hit some of the clickables

[00:08:56.06]
just the right way, in the right order,

[00:08:58.04]
you can cause the volcano
to explode on that board.

[00:09:01.03]
And, for a long time,

[00:09:02.01]
players had a suspicion
that that could happen.

[00:09:04.01]
In fact, one person
accidentally got it to happen

[00:09:06.05]
on a Twitch stream, so
they knew it was involved

[00:09:08.03]
with some of the clickables
in the bottom right.

[00:09:10.03]
So, somebody mapped click points

[00:09:11.09]
to different keys on their keyboard,

[00:09:13.04]
and just randomly started spamming it.

[00:09:14.05]
And, he got it to happen, as well.

[00:09:16.02]
So, they backtracked that, came
up with the right sequence.

[00:09:19.02]
It turns out those
clickables make some tones.

[00:09:21.08]
If you play the cinematic melody

[00:09:24.05]
from Journey to Un'Goro,
that is the melody

[00:09:27.03]
that causes the volcano
to explode on that map.

[00:09:42.00]
How do you decide which characters

[00:09:43.04]
to take from World of Warcraft

[00:09:44.07]
and when to create brand new ones?

[00:09:46.05]
We love World of Warcraft.

[00:09:48.01]
We all play World of Warcraft.

[00:09:49.04]
I've led guilds, and
raids, and done a lot of

[00:09:53.05]
the Heroic Challenge Modes,
and things like that.

[00:09:55.05]
So, we play just a ton
of World of Warcraft.

[00:09:57.03]
A lot of that game
really resonates with us,

[00:09:59.00]
and we're excited about characters,

[00:10:01.00]
which we try and get those
characters into Hearthstone.

[00:10:02.09]
Most of the characters in Hearthstone

[00:10:04.04]
are from World of Warcraft in some way.

[00:10:05.09]
But, sometimes, we create
our own characters,

[00:10:07.09]
and often, that's because we're looking

[00:10:09.05]
for a specific representation of a class.

[00:10:12.05]
Let's say we have to make
a Rogue Legendary minion,

[00:10:15.05]
and we want it to have
this kind of effect.

[00:10:17.02]
But, there isn't a
great example of a Rogue

[00:10:19.05]
that does that in World of Warcraft,

[00:10:20.09]
and so we dip a little
deeper and use things

[00:10:23.08]
that are from the world,

[00:10:25.00]
but not necessarily explicit
in its representation.

[00:10:28.06]
Hearthstone, we actually painted Rexxar

[00:10:31.01]
with a bow and arrow in his art,

[00:10:33.01]
to push him more into that
classic, iconic player fantasy,

[00:10:36.04]
even though he's never
appeared with a bow and arrow

[00:10:38.05]
in World of Warcraft.

[00:10:39.07]
What happens over time to the Classic set

[00:10:41.07]
as it continues to lose cards each year?

[00:10:43.08]
This question's referring
to the Hall of Fame rotation

[00:10:46.06]
that we recently did with
the Year of the Raven,

[00:10:49.07]
where a couple cards from the Classic set

[00:10:51.07]
get rotated into the Hall of Fame

[00:10:53.07]
and become exclusive to Wild.

[00:10:55.04]
And, we do this for a
very specific reason.

[00:10:57.01]
We really want the Standard
format to change every year.

[00:11:01.05]
It needs to feel fresh and
different, all the time.

[00:11:03.07]
That's why the Standard format exists.

[00:11:06.01]
And, the Wild format is a place

[00:11:07.07]
where you can play all your cards.

[00:11:09.02]
It's a place where there's
huge diversity in decks,

[00:11:11.02]
because there's so many
cards that you can play with.

[00:11:12.06]
And, to make sure that the
Standard format does succeed

[00:11:15.06]
in having that fresh, new take every year,

[00:11:17.08]
if there's cards in the Evergreen sets,

[00:11:19.05]
which are the Basic and Classic sets

[00:11:21.00]
that are causing the same decks
to appear year after year,

[00:11:23.09]
those are sometimes a problem

[00:11:25.04]
for making Standard feel fresh,

[00:11:27.00]
and we take those cards
and we rotate some of them

[00:11:29.03]
into the Wild exclusive
set, the Hall of Fame.

[00:11:32.06]
As we do that over time,
the biggest offenders

[00:11:35.00]
are now in he Hall of Fame already.

[00:11:36.07]
Now, that said, there are some
fewer number of cards now,

[00:11:39.09]
and some of them are class cards,

[00:11:41.01]
so there's a disparity
between the number of,

[00:11:43.03]
for example, Mage class cards in Standard

[00:11:45.03]
versus, for example, Hunter.

[00:11:46.07]
And, so that's an opportunity

[00:11:47.09]
to maybe put a couple of Mage cards

[00:11:50.00]
back into the Classic set.

[00:11:51.04]
We have to be very careful,

[00:11:52.03]
because we don't want to
put very powerful cards

[00:11:54.04]
that have the same problem that we had,

[00:11:56.02]
where now Standard is not feeling fresh

[00:11:58.02]
and different each year, 'cause
these are Evergreen sets.

[00:12:00.02]
I think our goal was to make sure

[00:12:01.01]
that we sell the classic
fantasy of Hearthstone

[00:12:03.03]
and set up the class
identity for the classes.

[00:12:06.04]
So, one of the cards we've talked about

[00:12:07.08]
is Shatter, right, it's a two mana card.

[00:12:10.02]
It says 'Destroy a Frozen minion',

[00:12:13.01]
and it's not very powerful,

[00:12:14.05]
but it is a card that sets
up that Mage class fantasy

[00:12:19.00]
of freezing minions, and
tells you a little bit

[00:12:21.08]
about their class identity,

[00:12:22.09]
so I think that actually has, potentially,

[00:12:24.07]
a space in the Classic set in the future,

[00:12:27.01]
even though it's not a very powerful card.

[00:12:28.03]
I don't think we're going
to end up in a world

[00:12:29.08]
where all of the Classic set
rotates to the Hall of Fame.

[00:12:33.00]
I think we did less with
the Year of the Raven

[00:12:35.01]
then we did in the Year of the Mammoth.

[00:12:36.01]
It's possible to continue
to do less over time,

[00:12:38.03]
and I definitely could see a time

[00:12:39.03]
where we just stop doing
these Hall of Fame rotations,

[00:12:41.03]
because the Classic and Basic sets

[00:12:42.07]
are in a really good place.

[00:12:43.06]
There still very powerful,
but they're not stopping

[00:12:46.00]
the Standard rotation from happening.

[00:12:47.06]
How did you come up with
the fatigue mechanic?

[00:12:50.01]
I love this story,

[00:12:51.00]
because this really
came down to one moment.

[00:12:53.06]
We were doing a play test,
and we asked Jeff Kaplan,

[00:12:56.02]
who's the game director
on the Overwatch team,

[00:12:57.07]
to come over and try the game.

[00:12:58.09]
And, he got really into it.

[00:13:00.00]
He started playing minions, and attacking,

[00:13:01.07]
and he was having some fun
figuring out what cards to play,

[00:13:04.06]
and he had never played it before,

[00:13:05.09]
he was excited to get into it.

[00:13:07.08]
And, he was very close
to winning, and then,

[00:13:10.02]
the computer he was playing
against passed the turn.

[00:13:12.02]
It said 'Your Turn', 'You Lose'.

[00:13:16.00]
And, what had happened was,

[00:13:17.01]
he'd run out of cards.

[00:13:18.01]
Traditionally, in a lot
of these card games,

[00:13:19.08]
when you run out of cards, you lose,

[00:13:21.00]
'cause, what else can you do?

[00:13:22.03]
And, it was such a stark moment.

[00:13:24.08]
It made the whole game
feel completely useless,

[00:13:27.00]
because it didn't matter
the decisions he made

[00:13:28.04]
during the game, he was just going to lose

[00:13:29.05]
as soon as he ran out of cards anyway.

[00:13:30.06]
And so we said,

[00:13:31.04]
"Hey, after watching Kaplan
have that experience,

[00:13:33.07]
"we need a different solution
for running out of cards."

[00:13:36.04]
And so, we designed the fatigue mechanic,

[00:13:38.08]
where it ratchets up the damage

[00:13:40.02]
every time you try and draw a
card but your deck is empty,

[00:13:42.07]
you starting doing one, then
two, then three, then four,

[00:13:45.00]
it increases over time
how much damage you take.

[00:13:46.09]
And, what that does,
is it connects back in

[00:13:49.07]
with the whole rest of the
game that's happened before it.

[00:13:51.04]
If you were one damage away
from killing your opponent,

[00:13:54.01]
he's going to die to fatigue.

[00:13:55.02]
So, that whole game where you got him

[00:13:56.06]
to that point mattered a lot.

[00:13:58.00]
If you have a huge amount of minions,

[00:13:59.07]
you have time to attack and
deal the damage you need to

[00:14:02.04]
to kill your opponent.

[00:14:03.03]
The game matters again.

[00:14:04.08]
It isn't a huge surprise and moment

[00:14:07.07]
when you run out of cards.

[00:14:09.02]
It slowly ramps up to let you know,

[00:14:11.00]
"Hey, this game will end.

[00:14:11.09]
"You do need to get it going."

[00:14:13.07]
But, it isn't breaking you out
of that gameplay experience.

[00:14:17.04]
It's good fun going through

[00:14:18.05]
the Unsolved Mysteries
of Hearthstone with you.

[00:14:21.01]
This is ARS Technica, thanks.

[00:14:23.00]